From sunshine at public.kherson.ua Mon Dec 12 17:09:39 2005 From: sunshine at public.kherson.ua (Ruslan Zasukhin) Date: Mon Dec 12 09:10:37 2005 Subject: ODBC import In-Reply-To: <1101423158.20051212175543@sevenrays.ru> Message-ID: On 12/12/05 4:55 PM, "Alexey Starchikhin" wrote: Hi Alexey, > Good day! > > Is there any way to import data from Access database to Valentina via > scripting in Director? No, this is feature of Valentina Studio only. > My client wants complete automatic process, and he refuse > to hear "Just start Valentina_ODBC_import, open all.xml, and press OK".. > > Any ideas? Well, we plan add JavaScript scripting to Valentina Studio, So it will be automated. Alex have made a lots of work -- plugin mostly was made as I know. But it needs yet integrate it into Vstudio yet. ------------- Why you cannot automate this process e.g. In this way: * you script Access itself to export info into text files * then you import that files fro Lingo using Cursor.Import -- Best regards, Ruslan Zasukhin VP Engineering and New Technology Paradigma Software, Inc Valentina - Joining Worlds of Information http://www.paradigmasoft.com [I feel the need: the need for speed] From ssa at sevenrays.ru Mon Dec 12 18:13:48 2005 From: ssa at sevenrays.ru (Alexey Starchikhin) Date: Mon Dec 12 09:15:21 2005 Subject: ODBC import In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <208671267.20051212181348@sevenrays.ru> RZ> On 12/12/05 4:55 PM, "Alexey Starchikhin" wrote: RZ> Hi Alexey, >> Good day! >> >> Is there any way to import data from Access database to Valentina via >> scripting in Director? RZ> No, this is feature of Valentina Studio only. >> My client wants complete automatic process, and he refuse >> to hear "Just start Valentina_ODBC_import, open all.xml, and press OK".. >> >> Any ideas? RZ> Well, we plan add JavaScript scripting to Valentina Studio, RZ> So it will be automated. RZ> Alex have made a lots of work -- plugin mostly was made as I know. RZ> But it needs yet integrate it into Vstudio yet. RZ> ------------- RZ> Why you cannot automate this process e.g. In this way: RZ> * you script Access itself to export info into text files RZ> * then you import that files fro Lingo using Cursor.Import Yes, it's the only way.. Thanks! From sunshine at public.kherson.ua Tue Dec 13 18:12:13 2005 From: sunshine at public.kherson.ua (Ruslan Zasukhin) Date: Tue Dec 13 10:12:55 2005 Subject: [V4RB] Boolean indexed? In-Reply-To: <15884C80-5275-4674-9011-120861C8F057@Comcast.net> Message-ID: On 12/13/05 6:05 PM, "Bill Mounce" wrote: > Ruslan, > > Yes, I am on the latest version of Studio on the Mac. I have a second > boolean field that is not marked as indexed, and if I create a brand > new database, none of the boolean fields are marked as indexed. Jochen, You need check this. Sounds strange. All Boolean should be marked as indexed, And they cannot be unique never. -- Best regards, Ruslan Zasukhin VP Engineering and New Technology Paradigma Software, Inc Valentina - Joining Worlds of Information http://www.paradigmasoft.com [I feel the need: the need for speed] From myoung at ieee.org Wed Dec 14 00:00:18 2005 From: myoung at ieee.org (M Young) Date: Wed Dec 14 00:00:46 2005 Subject: [ANN] Valentina Studio 2.0b16 available In-Reply-To: <20051213161258.E37723DF3F5@edison.macserve.net> References: <20051213161258.E37723DF3F5@edison.macserve.net> Message-ID: <447E864E-0296-4F57-8C7A-0884EE230C07@ieee.org> OS X 10.4.3 iBook 12 inch screen 2.0b16 , Build Oct 18 2005, 21:47:20 ^ Comma usually used in this date format ^ unneeded space before comma Every time I start the application VS, the top of the Schema Browser is clipped along the top. The clipping appears to almost exactly lining up with the horizontal line in the left hand green plus sign used for windowing control. When I pull the Schema Browser down on the screen it stays down and cannot be put back into the wrong starting position. However the clipping is present the next time I start VS or select New Schema Browser. Regards, Michael PS It would be nice if the About Valentina Studio information could be selected for copy into such things as these e-mails rather than me having to reproduce what the dialog shows. From j.peters at valentina-db.de Wed Dec 14 07:51:39 2005 From: j.peters at valentina-db.de (Jochen Peters) Date: Wed Dec 14 00:52:21 2005 Subject: [ANN] Valentina Studio 2.0b16 available In-Reply-To: <447E864E-0296-4F57-8C7A-0884EE230C07@ieee.org> References: <20051213161258.E37723DF3F5@edison.macserve.net> <447E864E-0296-4F57-8C7A-0884EE230C07@ieee.org> Message-ID: <44345.62.154.199.179.1134543099.squirrel@webmail3.server-einstellung.de> Hi Michael, > OS X 10.4.3 > iBook 12 inch screen > 2.0b16 , Build Oct 18 2005, 21:47:20 > ^ Comma usually used in this > date format > ^ unneeded space before comma > > Every time I start the application VS, the top of the Schema Browser > is clipped along the top. The clipping appears to almost exactly > lining up with the horizontal line in the left hand green plus sign > used for windowing control. When I pull the Schema Browser down on > the screen it stays down and cannot be put back into the wrong > starting position. However the clipping is present the next time I > start VS or select New Schema Browser. Thanks for the report. Yes - this is a known issue with b16 and should be already fixed in the latest release. Yesterday evening i have uploaded a new Windows build - today i will upload a new Mac version which should fix this issue. > Regards, > > Michael > PS It would be nice if the About Valentina Studio information could > be selected for copy into such things as these e-mails rather than me > having to reproduce what the dialog shows. Aha - yes. Good point. -- Best regards, Jochen Peters PIIT GmbH -------------------------- http://www.valentina-db.de From sunshine at public.kherson.ua Wed Dec 14 12:19:09 2005 From: sunshine at public.kherson.ua (Ruslan Zasukhin) Date: Wed Dec 14 04:19:49 2005 Subject: I enjoy with new build! Message-ID: Hi Jochen, I have download your Dec 13 WIN build. I like new Structure Browser!!! So far I have not found major glitches in it. Only points to mention: * Let I have selected table T1 Now If I again click into it many times, then each time property inspector is redrawn and blims. I think you can avoid re-draw properties for current object. * for Database contextual menu -- no Diagnose here. -- Best regards, Ruslan Zasukhin VP Engineering and New Technology Paradigma Software, Inc Valentina - Joining Worlds of Information http://www.paradigmasoft.com [I feel the need: the need for speed] From sunshine at public.kherson.ua Wed Dec 14 12:25:33 2005 From: sunshine at public.kherson.ua (Ruslan Zasukhin) Date: Wed Dec 14 04:26:12 2005 Subject: I enjoy with new build! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12/14/05 12:19 PM, "Ruslan Zasukhin" wrote: > Hi Jochen, > > I have download your Dec 13 WIN build. > > I like new Structure Browser!!! > So far I have not found major glitches in it. And new Data Browser -- I love it I have try add records, navigate -- perfect!! -- Best regards, Ruslan Zasukhin VP Engineering and New Technology Paradigma Software, Inc Valentina - Joining Worlds of Information http://www.paradigmasoft.com [I feel the need: the need for speed] From sunshine at public.kherson.ua Wed Dec 14 12:33:29 2005 From: sunshine at public.kherson.ua (Ruslan Zasukhin) Date: Wed Dec 14 04:34:08 2005 Subject: [bug] Apple-search menu select only StartWith Message-ID: I cannot switch to other items -- Best regards, Ruslan Zasukhin VP Engineering and New Technology Paradigma Software, Inc Valentina - Joining Worlds of Information http://www.paradigmasoft.com [I feel the need: the need for speed] From sunshine at public.kherson.ua Wed Dec 14 12:37:17 2005 From: sunshine at public.kherson.ua (Ruslan Zasukhin) Date: Wed Dec 14 04:37:59 2005 Subject: [bug] after create field, properties are not updated Message-ID: If you create field, then select that table, You still see old number of fields in the Property Inspector. Only close/open of db fix info -- Best regards, Ruslan Zasukhin VP Engineering and New Technology Paradigma Software, Inc Valentina - Joining Worlds of Information http://www.paradigmasoft.com [I feel the need: the need for speed] From j.peters at valentina-db.de Wed Dec 14 11:42:04 2005 From: j.peters at valentina-db.de (Jochen Peters) Date: Wed Dec 14 04:42:33 2005 Subject: I enjoy with new build! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44360.62.154.199.179.1134556924.squirrel@webmail3.server-einstellung.de> Hi Ruslan, > I have download your Dec 13 WIN build. > > I like new Structure Browser!!! > So far I have not found major glitches in it. Good! > > > Only points to mention: > > * Let I have selected table T1 > Now If I again click into it many times, > then each time property inspector is redrawn and blims. > I think you can avoid re-draw properties for current object. Yes - i also have seen this - very anoying. I will fix that ASAP. > * for Database contextual menu -- no Diagnose here. Ok. > > -- > Best regards, > > Ruslan Zasukhin > VP Engineering and New Technology > Paradigma Software, Inc > > Valentina - Joining Worlds of Information > http://www.paradigmasoft.com > > [I feel the need: the need for speed] > > > _______________________________________________ > Valentina-studio mailing list > Valentina-studio@lists.macserve.net > http://lists.macserve.net/mailman/listinfo/valentina-studio > From j.peters at valentina-db.de Wed Dec 14 11:43:53 2005 From: j.peters at valentina-db.de (Jochen Peters) Date: Wed Dec 14 04:44:21 2005 Subject: I enjoy with new build! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46051.62.154.199.179.1134557033.squirrel@webmail3.server-einstellung.de> >> I have download your Dec 13 WIN build. >> >> I like new Structure Browser!!! >> So far I have not found major glitches in it. > > And new Data Browser -- I love it > > I have try add records, navigate -- perfect!! Yes - it looks very good now. I think we have made major steps. The DataBrowser also works on Mac now!! I have only one little glitch with small icon in header.. -- Best regards, Jochen Peters PIIT GmbH -------------------------- http://www.valentina-db.de From j.peters at valentina-db.de Wed Dec 14 11:44:34 2005 From: j.peters at valentina-db.de (Jochen Peters) Date: Wed Dec 14 04:45:02 2005 Subject: [bug] Apple-search menu select only StartWith In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46885.62.154.199.179.1134557074.squirrel@webmail3.server-einstellung.de> > > I cannot switch to other items Hhmm - this has worked.. I will check. > > -- > Best regards, > > Ruslan Zasukhin > VP Engineering and New Technology > Paradigma Software, Inc > > Valentina - Joining Worlds of Information > http://www.paradigmasoft.com > > [I feel the need: the need for speed] > > > _______________________________________________ > Valentina-studio mailing list > Valentina-studio@lists.macserve.net > http://lists.macserve.net/mailman/listinfo/valentina-studio > From j.peters at valentina-db.de Wed Dec 14 11:45:05 2005 From: j.peters at valentina-db.de (Jochen Peters) Date: Wed Dec 14 04:45:33 2005 Subject: [bug] after create field, properties are not updated In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47554.62.154.199.179.1134557105.squirrel@webmail3.server-einstellung.de> > > If you create field, then select that table, > You still see old number of fields in the Property Inspector. > > Only close/open of db fix info Argh..Ok. I will fix that. > > > -- > Best regards, > > Ruslan Zasukhin > VP Engineering and New Technology > Paradigma Software, Inc > > Valentina - Joining Worlds of Information > http://www.paradigmasoft.com > > [I feel the need: the need for speed] > > > _______________________________________________ > Valentina-studio mailing list > Valentina-studio@lists.macserve.net > http://lists.macserve.net/mailman/listinfo/valentina-studio > From sunshine at public.kherson.ua Wed Dec 14 12:48:30 2005 From: sunshine at public.kherson.ua (Ruslan Zasukhin) Date: Wed Dec 14 04:49:13 2005 Subject: [bug3] open by double click open db second time Message-ID: * I have open in vstudio some db * quite studio (so next open it self open that db) * now I double click db in windows this start vstudio to open db OPS, now vstudio show that db 2 times: - first because from prefs - second because of double click -- Best regards, Ruslan Zasukhin VP Engineering and New Technology Paradigma Software, Inc Valentina - Joining Worlds of Information http://www.paradigmasoft.com [I feel the need: the need for speed] From j.peters at valentina-db.de Wed Dec 14 12:02:57 2005 From: j.peters at valentina-db.de (Jochen Peters) Date: Wed Dec 14 05:03:26 2005 Subject: [bug3] open by double click open db second time In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <17297.62.154.199.179.1134558177.squirrel@webmail3.server-einstellung.de> > > * I have open in vstudio some db > * quite studio (so next open it self open that db) > > * now I double click db in windows > this start vstudio to open db > > OPS, now vstudio show that db 2 times: > > - first because from prefs > - second because of double click This will lead to a crash - sooner or later - i guess ..:-) Well - so vStudio must add some check if db is already opened. I wonder: Kernel opens db as read/write, right? And this works two times? Well - in any case we must have some check - because i remember on OS X we can get problems with this. On the other hand: Can't this check be moved into the kernel itself? It seems to be usefull for all products.. -- Best regards, Jochen Peters PIIT GmbH -------------------------- http://www.valentina-db.de From j.peters at valentina-db.de Wed Dec 14 12:07:03 2005 From: j.peters at valentina-db.de (Jochen Peters) Date: Wed Dec 14 05:07:32 2005 Subject: [bug3] open by double click open db second time In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20788.62.154.199.179.1134558423.squirrel@webmail3.server-einstellung.de> Ruslan, you can see self this very old bug in kernel: - Close vStudio and also make sure that no db's will be open on start. - Doubleclick on a .vdb file SOMEWHERE on your HD (not inside vStudio folder) -->> kernel will throw exception (because kernel can not find its files when it is started from different location) -- Best regards, Jochen Peters PIIT GmbH -------------------------- http://www.valentina-db.de From sunshine at public.kherson.ua Wed Dec 14 13:28:48 2005 From: sunshine at public.kherson.ua (Ruslan Zasukhin) Date: Wed Dec 14 05:29:27 2005 Subject: [bug3] open by double click open db second time In-Reply-To: <17297.62.154.199.179.1134558177.squirrel@webmail3.server-einstellung.de> Message-ID: On 12/14/05 1:02 PM, "Jochen Peters" wrote: >> * I have open in vstudio some db >> * quite studio (so next open it self open that db) >> >> * now I double click db in windows >> this start vstudio to open db >> >> OPS, now vstudio show that db 2 times: >> >> - first because from prefs >> - second because of double click Btw, this is on Windows > This will lead to a crash - sooner or later - i guess ..:-) > > Well - so vStudio must add some check if db is already opened. > I wonder: Kernel opens db as read/write, right? And this works > two times? > Well - in any case we must have some check - because i remember on > OS X we can get problems with this. I have see this bug on Windows > On the other hand: Can't this check be moved into the kernel itself? > It seems to be usefull for all products.. -- Best regards, Ruslan Zasukhin VP Engineering and New Technology Paradigma Software, Inc Valentina - Joining Worlds of Information http://www.paradigmasoft.com [I feel the need: the need for speed] From sunshine at public.kherson.ua Wed Dec 14 13:29:29 2005 From: sunshine at public.kherson.ua (Ruslan Zasukhin) Date: Wed Dec 14 05:30:07 2005 Subject: [bug3] open by double click open db second time In-Reply-To: <17297.62.154.199.179.1134558177.squirrel@webmail3.server-einstellung.de> Message-ID: On 12/14/05 1:02 PM, "Jochen Peters" wrote: > I wonder: Kernel opens db as read/write, right? > And this works two times? It should not, may be only draw problems > Well - in any case we must have some check - because i remember on > OS X we can get problems with this. > On the other hand: Can't this check be moved into the kernel itself? > It seems to be usefull for all products.. -- Best regards, Ruslan Zasukhin VP Engineering and New Technology Paradigma Software, Inc Valentina - Joining Worlds of Information http://www.paradigmasoft.com [I feel the need: the need for speed] From sunshine at public.kherson.ua Wed Dec 14 13:30:05 2005 From: sunshine at public.kherson.ua (Ruslan Zasukhin) Date: Wed Dec 14 05:30:44 2005 Subject: [bug3] open by double click open db second time In-Reply-To: <20788.62.154.199.179.1134558423.squirrel@webmail3.server-einstellung.de> Message-ID: On 12/14/05 1:07 PM, "Jochen Peters" wrote: > Ruslan, > > you can see self this very old bug in kernel: > > - Close vStudio and also make sure that no db's will be open on start. > - Doubleclick on a .vdb file SOMEWHERE on your HD (not inside vStudio folder) > -->> kernel will throw exception > (because kernel can not find its files when it is started from different > location) I think this is other issue -- Best regards, Ruslan Zasukhin VP Engineering and New Technology Paradigma Software, Inc Valentina - Joining Worlds of Information http://www.paradigmasoft.com [I feel the need: the need for speed] From j.peters at valentina-db.de Wed Dec 14 12:50:40 2005 From: j.peters at valentina-db.de (Jochen Peters) Date: Wed Dec 14 05:51:08 2005 Subject: [bug3] open by double click open db second time In-Reply-To: References: <20788.62.154.199.179.1134558423.squirrel@webmail3.server-einstellung.de> Message-ID: <14691.62.154.199.179.1134561040.squirrel@webmail3.server-einstellung.de> >> you can see self this very old bug in kernel: >> >> - Close vStudio and also make sure that no db's will be open on start. >> - Doubleclick on a .vdb file SOMEWHERE on your HD (not inside vStudio >> folder) >> -->> kernel will throw exception >> (because kernel can not find its files when it is started from different >> location) > > I think this is other issue YES! But it is BIG and very old - still not fixed - issue!! It totally prevents opening of .vdb files automatically with Studio in Windows! And this problem will ALSO come to windows developer who want's to associate his db files with his custom application. It will be problem for C++, VNET, VCOM developers, because problem is in vshared.dll.... -- Best regards, Jochen Peters PIIT GmbH -------------------------- http://www.valentina-db.de From sunshine at public.kherson.ua Wed Dec 14 13:56:24 2005 From: sunshine at public.kherson.ua (Ruslan Zasukhin) Date: Wed Dec 14 05:57:04 2005 Subject: [bug3] open by double click open db second time In-Reply-To: <14691.62.154.199.179.1134561040.squirrel@webmail3.server-einstellung.de> Message-ID: On 12/14/05 1:50 PM, "Jochen Peters" wrote: >>> you can see self this very old bug in kernel: >>> >>> - Close vStudio and also make sure that no db's will be open on start. >>> - Doubleclick on a .vdb file SOMEWHERE on your HD (not inside vStudio >>> folder) >>> -->> kernel will throw exception >>> (because kernel can not find its files when it is started from different >>> location) >> >> I think this is other issue > YES! > But it is BIG and very old - still not fixed - issue!! > It totally prevents opening of .vdb files automatically with Studio > in Windows! What you mean automatically? Vstudio open for me dbs from pres session And I can open vdb by double click. > And this problem will ALSO come to windows developer who want's to > associate his db files with his custom application. It will be problem > for C++, VNET, VCOM developers, because problem is in vshared.dll.... Okay, we will look deeply. Ivan. -- Best regards, Ruslan Zasukhin VP Engineering and New Technology Paradigma Software, Inc Valentina - Joining Worlds of Information http://www.paradigmasoft.com [I feel the need: the need for speed] From Ed at Kleban.com Tue Dec 20 10:53:04 2005 From: Ed at Kleban.com (Ed Kleban) Date: Tue Dec 20 11:55:27 2005 Subject: Valentina Studio - Top 10 Impressions Message-ID: Howdy. I finally got to a point today where I had enough database tables to get lost in amidst debugging and so I fired up Valentina Studio. After being less than impressed I then went looking for a newer version and downloaded the beta version 2.1fc1 Build Dec 18 2005, 13:43:33 for Mac OS X and was much more impressed. Here are my Top-10 initial reactions and comments: Central theme: The most scarce resource in any GUI application is screen space, and VS is very wasteful of it. 1) I can use the preference to change the font displayed in the Schema Browser, however that doesn't gain me any advantage vertically since it uses HUGE icons that take up about two lines of vertical space when I set the font small to say, 9 pt Geneva. 2) In Column view, if I resize the window tall to include all the rows the scroll bar disappears ? which is ok. If I then resize window to be short the scroll bars do not reappear, which is a problem when you have a lot of tables, especially since due to (1) above you can't gain back any screen real estate by using smaller fonts. 3) Setting font to a smaller or larger size appears to have no desirable benefits for the Data browsers. It appears to change the height of the header row, but does not change the size of the text displayed in any row. It can therefore not be used to make shorter lines to view more lines in the window, nor can it be used to see more characters across in headers for narrow columns. 4) Selecting the "List View" option for Schema Browser in Preferences appears to have no effect on newly opened browsers either before or after relaunching the VS App. 5) Icons at the bottom of the Data Browser window impart a minimum window width. My first preference would be for these to either be optional, or go away, or be stacked into two rows, or otherwise fixed so that I could make my windows much narrower and therefore get more windows for more tables all visible on the screen at the same time instead of having the right half of the Data Browser windows showing useless blank white space. If you display a Data Browser for a related table it gets even worse, because the "Related Table" tool bar doubles the minimum required width of the window. 6) That said, if GUI is going to steal massive amounts of otherwise-useful screen space from the user's display, the least it could do is put something useful in that space. By default all of the columns are displayed in a very narrow width that does not display either the full column headers, nor in many cases the full data content even when 80+% of the window space to the right of the displayed columns is blank white space that can note be eliminated due to (5). 7) Worse yet, column widths are not retained. So if I adjust the width of all the columns to make the headers and data visible and then change the "Table:" from the pop menu at the top of the window, then later return to this same table I then have to manually resize all of the columns once again. What an incredible pain in the rear! 8) I appreciate it that when I select a record, that one (unpredictable) field is highlighted. I do not appreciate the fact that it is highlighted in a manner such that if I type any character on the keyboard the contents is then CHANGED. I would far prefer to see it highlighted in a manner ? or not at all if I just click on a row number (recId) that requires me to explicitly click on the cell to begin cell editing. Especially since there is no UNDO so if I accidentally change a value and don?t recall its (potentially very long) previous value, there's no way to restore it. 8a) BTW when I change a field as described in (8) does VS immediately write the new value to the table? Or does it keep a local copy that is only flushed to disk for real when I do an explicit File Save operation? Since I don't see either a File Save or a File Save As on the menu I'm guessing that my database is instantly corrupted as soon as I type a character as described above in (8). 8b) Is there any way to use VS in a "read-only" mode, such as the way you can use BBEdit or TextWrangler. I of course opened VS on a copy of my database out of paranoia, but if I need to explicitly write protect a large database before using VS on it to protect myself it would be good to know. I was not able to find any available documentation for download on the VS tool. 9) I would really appreciate a non-metalic Schema Browser window, or at least an option for such. 10) The "Action" pop-up as the Finder window tool-tip calls it (button with gear icon) does not pop up on mouse click and hold as is the convention for this popup. It only opens upon unclick. Thanks! --Ed _______________________________________________ Valentina mailing list Valentina@lists.macserve.net http://lists.macserve.net/mailman/listinfo/valentina From sunshine at public.kherson.ua Tue Dec 20 19:58:02 2005 From: sunshine at public.kherson.ua (Ruslan Zasukhin) Date: Tue Dec 20 11:58:46 2005 Subject: Valentina Studio - Top 10 Impressions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12/20/05 6:53 PM, "Ed Kleban" wrote: > Howdy. > > I finally got to a point today where I had enough database tables to get > lost in amidst debugging and so I fired up Valentina Studio. After being > less than impressed I then went looking for a newer version and downloaded > the beta version 2.1fc1 Build Dec 18 2005, 13:43:33 for Mac OS X and was > much more impressed. Btw, TOP - HIT features which was added last month are: * structure browser with Finder-like window * DataBrowser with MS Access/MS SQL behavior of data editing plus we have add few own keyboard shortcuts like on OS X * Related Data-Browser. Works for M : M binary links also * Filter in the data browser. Allow do multi-column filtering So make sure that you have check all these features. -- Best regards, Ruslan Zasukhin VP Engineering and New Technology Paradigma Software, Inc Valentina - Joining Worlds of Information http://www.paradigmasoft.com [I feel the need: the need for speed] From j.peters at valentina-db.de Tue Dec 20 19:56:31 2005 From: j.peters at valentina-db.de (Jochen Peters) Date: Tue Dec 20 12:57:32 2005 Subject: Valentina Studio - Top 10 Impressions Message-ID: Hi Ed! >Here are my Top-10 initial reactions and comments: >Central theme: The most scarce resource in any GUI application is screen >space, and VS is very wasteful of it. Well - GUI design has often been balanced between a screen full of all available information and a well structured presentation of only the relevant info - and - often the individual "taste" is different for different people. So - putting as much info as possible into the avaliable space can often be easily made with a DOS like screen approach :-):-) But general speaking i agree with you that we should not waste space! >1) I can use the preference to change the font displayed in the Schema >Browser, however that doesn't gain me any advantage vertically since it uses >HUGE icons that take up about two lines of vertical space when I set the >ont small to say, 9 pt Geneva. Yes - the simple reason is that the font info is currently not used in the Schema Browser - so i will add that ASAP. We can easily adjust the icons to a reasonable height depending on the current font size. This will give you the possibility to use the vertical space in the Schema Browser more effective. That said the question is if we should need the possibility to define DIFFERENT font/font sizes for Schema Browser/Data Browser, what you think? >2) In Column view, if I resize the window tall to include all the rows the >scroll bar disappears ? which is ok. If I then resize window to be short the >scroll bars do not reappear, which is a problem when you have a lot of >tables, especially since due to (1) above you can't gain back any screen >real estate by using smaller fonts. This seems to be a bug. Ed - it would be helpfull for us if you can report bugs in our bug tracking systems - we have a category for vStudio bugs in there. >3) Setting font to a smaller or larger size appears to have no desirable >benefits for the Data browsers. It appears to change the height of the >header row, but does not change the size of the text displayed in any row. >It can therefore not be used to make shorter lines to view more lines in the >window, nor can it be used to see more characters across in headers for >narrow columns. This is also a bug! This has worked before - but as Ruslan mentioned the DataBroswer was completly rewritten - so - it seems we must reenable the use of the font info to size the rows accordingly. >4) Selecting the "List View" option for Schema Browser in Preferences >appears to have no effect on newly opened browsers either before or after >relaunching the VS App. Yes - i have disabled the list view - it was not very usefull and i want first concentrate on the column view. If we will have the column view nearly perfect i will work on the list view again (in case we still need it) >5) Icons at the bottom of the Data Browser window impart a minimum window >width. My first preference would be for these to either be optional, or go >away, or be stacked into two rows, or otherwise fixed so that I could make >my windows much narrower and therefore get more windows for more tables all >visible on the screen at the same time instead of having the right half of >the Data Browser windows showing useless blank white space. If you display >a Data Browser for a related table it gets even worse, because the "Related >Table" tool bar doubles the minimum required width of the window. Well - for the "normal" browser this comes only in effect if you have - say - only 2 -3 fields in a table, right? For the "related browser" - maybe you are right. On the other hand the options for the related browser are very powerfull and we must put them somewhere... >6) That said, if GUI is going to steal massive amounts of otherwise- useful >screen space from the user's display, the least it could do is put something >useful in that space. By default all of the columns are displayed in a very >narrow width that does not display either the full column headers, nor in >many cases the full data content even when 80+% of the window space to the >right of the displayed columns is blank white space that can note be >eliminated due to (5). > >7) Worse yet, column widths are not retained. So if I adjust the width of >all the columns to make the headers and data visible and then change the >"Table:" from the pop menu at the top of the window, then later return to >this same table I then have to manually resize all of the columns once >again. What an incredible pain in the rear! I think the main point here is storing the width of the columns, right? That way we can use the otherwise wasted space. Yes - this must be done. For this we need to store this info along with any table in a database. I have discussed this with Ruslan before - it is simply not yet implemented. >8) I appreciate it that when I select a record, that one (unpredictable) >field is highlighted. I do not appreciate the fact that it is highlighted >in a manner such that if I type any character on the keyboard the contents >is then CHANGED. I would far prefer to see it highlighted in a manner ? or >not at all if I just click on a row number (recId) that requires me to >explicitly click on the cell to begin cell editing. Especially since there >is no UNDO so if I accidentally change a value and don?t recall its >(potentially very long) previous value, there's no way to restore it. No - wrong. You can press "ESC" to restore the previous value. And note that the record is saved only if you go to another record! >8a) BTW when I change a field as described in (8) does VS immediately write >the new value to the table? No - see above. >Or does it keep a local copy that is only >flushed to disk for real when I do an explicit File Save operation? Since I >don't see either a File Save or a File Save As on the menu I'm guessing that >my database is instantly corrupted as soon as I type a character as >described above in (8). >8b) Is there any way to use VS in a "read-only" mode, such as the way you >can use BBEdit or TextWrangler. I of course opened VS on a copy of my >database out of paranoia, but if I need to explicitly write protect a large >database before using VS on it to protect myself it would be good to know. >I was not able to find any available documentation for download on the VS >tool. Well - Read-Only made can be done very easy, i think. Maybe we should do that? Ruslan? The documentation will be available shortly after releasing the final version. >9) I would really appreciate a non-metalic Schema Browser window, or at >least an option for such. Ok - can be easy added as a option. >10) The "Action" pop-up as the Finder window tool-tip calls it (button with >gear icon) does not pop up on mouse click and hold as is the convention for >this popup. It only opens upon unclick. Ok - this can be changed, too. -- Best regards, Jochen Peters PIIT GmbH ------------------------------------ http://www.valentina-db.de From Ed at Kleban.com Tue Dec 20 13:39:48 2005 From: Ed at Kleban.com (Ed Kleban) Date: Tue Dec 20 13:40:34 2005 Subject: Valentina Studio - Top 10 Impressions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12/20/05 12:56 PM, "Jochen Peters" wrote: > Hi Ed! > >> Here are my Top-10 initial reactions and comments: > >> Central theme: The most scarce resource in any GUI application is > screen >> space, and VS is very wasteful of it. > Well - GUI design has often been balanced between a screen full of > all available information > and a well structured presentation of only the relevant info - and - > often the individual > "taste" is different for different people. > So - putting as much info as possible into the avaliable space can > often be easily made > with a DOS like screen approach :-):-) > But general speaking i agree with you that we should not waste space! > There is a tradeoff in the development of a design that helpful vs detrimental based on how dense or terse the information is, or how integrated vs how distributed that information is. Consider for example, if you are familiar with new and old versions REAL basic, or Internet Explorer vs Safari the difference between requiring a user to open a new window for every class or Web page, vs. supporting a multi-tabbed interface that offers a higher-level mechanism for sanely managing a great deal of information. I was delighted to see that VS offers both. Namely, you can have as many windows open as you'd like, and the popup at the top allows you to independently select the table(s) of your choice in each. This is a completely different issue however from making the most effective use of the valuable screen space you carve out in a window. It's nice to have options for the former. Abusing the later is merely a sign of poor design and and poor accommodation of human factors. But generally speaking, I suspect we are in heated agreement with each other :-) >> 1) I can use the preference to change the font displayed in the Schema >> Browser, however that doesn't gain me any advantage vertically > since it uses >> HUGE icons that take up about two lines of vertical space when I > set the >> ont small to say, 9 pt Geneva. > Yes - the simple reason is that the font info is currently not used > in the Schema Browser - You mean the data browser I presume, not Schema browser. I WAS able to change the effecctive font size used in the Schema browser; once that is. I was able to change it to a small 9pt Geneva. I've been less successful since then in changing it again. > so i will add that ASAP. We can easily adjust the icons to a > reasonable height depending > on the current font size. This will give you the possibility to use > the vertical space in > the Schema Browser more effective. > That said the question is if we should need the possibility to define > DIFFERENT font/font sizes > for Schema Browser/Data Browser, what you think? > Do we NEED to? That's an aesthetics and judgement call. But I'd argue that if the font can be changed it should by default change it for ALL displays. If you want to have separate fonts for different kind of Browsers, heck that would be great. But in this age of Big screens with big resolutions, small screens with small resolutions, users with good eyesight wanting small type, users with bad eyesight wanting large type, and a half dozen other preferences or reasons for wanting variable type size, the failure to accommodate it in a modern app is bound to disappoint more users in my opinion than having a preferences dialog with "too many" font options. >> 2) In Column view, if I resize the window tall to include all the > rows the >> scroll bar disappears ? which is ok. If I then resize window to be > short the >> scroll bars do not reappear, which is a problem when you have a lot of >> tables, especially since due to (1) above you can't gain back any > screen >> real estate by using smaller fonts. > This seems to be a bug. Ed - it would be helpfull for us if you can > report bugs > in our bug tracking systems - we have a category for vStudio bugs in > there. > I'm generally quite happy to report bugs that I'm bitten by and feel strongly about having corrected, as Ruslan will tell you and as you can readily see on the Valentia Mantis list. But in a survey report like this, I'm offering first impressions and presuming the authors or others will submit any issues that they consider to be bugs of sufficient problem that it bothers them. Eventually, yes I'll probably get around to documenting these. Right now, it's simply not a priority. VS is low down on my list. I've a backlog of V2 issues I'd far rather invest my limited time in right now. >> 3) Setting font to a smaller or larger size appears to have no > desirable >> benefits for the Data browsers. It appears to change the height of > the >> header row, but does not change the size of the text displayed in > any row. >> It can therefore not be used to make shorter lines to view more > lines in the >> window, nor can it be used to see more characters across in headers > for >> narrow columns. > This is also a bug! This has worked before - but as Ruslan mentioned > the DataBroswer > was completly rewritten - so - it seems we must reenable the use of > the font info to > size the rows accordingly. > Two bugs and counting :) That's a good thing to discover then. >> 4) Selecting the "List View" option for Schema Browser in Preferences >> appears to have no effect on newly opened browsers either before or > after >> relaunching the VS App. > Yes - i have disabled the list view - it was not very usefull and i > want first concentrate > on the column view. If we will have the column view nearly perfect i > will work on the list view again > (in case we still need it) > Then wouldn't it be a good idea to also disable the button in the Preference dialog so users can see it's a feature under consideration that is not selectable? >> 5) Icons at the bottom of the Data Browser window impart a minimum > window >> width. My first preference would be for these to either be > optional, or go >> away, or be stacked into two rows, or otherwise fixed so that I > could make >> my windows much narrower and therefore get more windows for more > tables all >> visible on the screen at the same time instead of having the right > half of >> the Data Browser windows showing useless blank white space. If you > display >> a Data Browser for a related table it gets even worse, because the > "Related >> Table" tool bar doubles the minimum required width of the window. > Well - for the "normal" browser this comes only in effect if you have > - say - only 2 -3 fields > in a table, right? Correct. And my database has a great many tables with few fields, not a very few tables with a great many fields. And until the lack of a lazy read capability in V2 gets fixed, that will probably remain the case. With my style of programming however, it will likely always be the case. So the current design with the default layout wastes over half the space in all of my visible table browsers. And to be useful I need to be staring at 2 to 5 of them across the whole width, all at the same time. Or is the VS layout only intended to be useful or optimal for people who use the database in the manner that the VS designers deem to be "best", "most common", or some other definition of "appropriate"? There are LOTS of good solutions to this. Most simple among them is to simply not put an artificial minimum width restriction on the windows. Let the tools slide off the right side and become inaccessible unless the user makes the window wider. The way most applications such as Web browsers accommodate needs like this to make display of toolbars and such optional from the View Menu, so that the user can reclaim the vertical space as well. Or add a preference setting if you feel novice users need to see windows wide enough to view all the possible tools. But I'll point out that you currently don't do this for the Info inspector windows which open at a narrower width than properly accommodates all the controls it holds and therefore shows them falling off the right side of the window. Sorry, in my opinion this is simply an artificial restriction that is inconsistently implemented and has no reasonable justification if you expect the tool to appeal to power users as well as novices. And one might argue, that the purcharser and user of a tool like this is far more likely to be the former than the later. > For the "related browser" - maybe you are right. > On the other hand the > options for the related browser are very powerfull and we must put > them somewhere... > I agree 100%. Good design conforming to the Apple HUI guidelines dictates that they all be accessible from menus. Tool bars are an extra. But leave 'em in the tool bars as well. Just be a bit more clever about it or less restrictive in your window sizing limitations. >> 6) That said, if GUI is going to steal massive amounts of otherwise- > useful >> screen space from the user's display, the least it could do is put > something >> useful in that space. By default all of the columns are displayed > in a very >> narrow width that does not display either the full column headers, > nor in >> many cases the full data content even when 80+% of the window space > to the >> right of the displayed columns is blank white space that can note be >> eliminated due to (5). >> >> 7) Worse yet, column widths are not retained. So if I adjust the > width of >> all the columns to make the headers and data visible and then > change the >> "Table:" from the pop menu at the top of the window, then later > return to >> this same table I then have to manually resize all of the columns once >> again. What an incredible pain in the rear! > I think the main point here is storing the width of the columns, > right? That way > we can use the otherwise wasted space. Yes - this must be done. For > this we need > to store this info along with any table in a database. I have > discussed this with > Ruslan before - it is simply not yet implemented. No problem. Always nice to have a good list of features on your "to do" list. I'll look forward to it. In meantime I'll enjoy the finger exercise and look for a softer cushion to sit on. >> 8) I appreciate it that when I select a record, that one > (unpredictable) >> field is highlighted. I do not appreciate the fact that it is > highlighted >> in a manner such that if I type any character on the keyboard the > contents >> is then CHANGED. I would far prefer to see it highlighted in a > manner ? or >> not at all if I just click on a row number (recId) that requires me to >> explicitly click on the cell to begin cell editing. Especially > since there >> is no UNDO so if I accidentally change a value and don?t recall its >> (potentially very long) previous value, there's no way to restore it. > No - wrong. You can press "ESC" to restore the previous value. Good to know. And incompatible with standard UIF guidelines. > And note > that the record is saved only if you go to another record! > Also good to know. And thus clinching the fact that this NECESSARILY is a tool for power users in its current form. Use by novices of a tool like this that does not require a "Save" to confirm edits is simply an accommodation to a request on their part of the form: "please screw me and my data". >> 8a) BTW when I change a field as described in (8) does VS > immediately write >> the new value to the table? > No - see above. > Right. See above. >> Or does it keep a local copy that is only >> flushed to disk for real when I do an explicit File Save > operation? Since I >> don't see either a File Save or a File Save As on the menu I'm > guessing that >> my database is instantly corrupted as soon as I type a character as >> described above in (8). > >> 8b) Is there any way to use VS in a "read-only" mode, such as the > way you >> can use BBEdit or TextWrangler. I of course opened VS on a copy of my >> database out of paranoia, but if I need to explicitly write protect > a large >> database before using VS on it to protect myself it would be good > to know. >> I was not able to find any available documentation for download on > the VS >> tool. > Well - Read-Only made can be done very easy, i think. Maybe we should > do that? Ruslan? Actually, the way BBEdit, and it's newer freeware replacement TextWranger, do this is to phyically lock the file they opened when you click on the little write-only icon at the left end of the tool bar. Easy to do. The question is, what happens when you open VS on a write-protected file? -- Which I have not tried. > The documentation will be available shortly after releasing the final > version. I look forward to reading it. > > >> 9) I would really appreciate a non-metalic Schema Browser window, > or at >> least an option for such. > Ok - can be easy added as a option. > I and numerous other Mac users who share this highly-charged religious viewpoint offer our thanks in advance :) >> 10) The "Action" pop-up as the Finder window tool-tip calls it > (button with >> gear icon) does not pop up on mouse click and hold as is the > convention for >> this popup. It only opens upon unclick. > Ok - this can be changed, too. > > > Great. That should keep you busy for the next 5 or 10 minutes at least. The above "hit-list" of impressions aside, I'll comment that except for crashing once, VS performed valiantly and did in the end with the co-use of the RB debugger end up showing me exactly where my logic error was, and has provided an new educational or confirmation viewpoint or two on data structuring that will have an impact on how I use VB. And that is certainly high praise. Keep up the good work. --Ed From Ed at Kleban.com Tue Dec 20 15:20:25 2005 From: Ed at Kleban.com (Ed Kleban) Date: Tue Dec 20 15:21:11 2005 Subject: Can't see table Message-ID: The related table portion of the data browswer along with the window splitter above it should move down when I grow a data browser window to be taller. I want to see more of my table when I grow the window, not a taller expanse of white space that will never have more data to dispay for a M:1 or 1:1 relation. Also, if the window splitter is moved sufficiently far down, then it becomes inaccessible and the window splitter can not be moved, even if you resize the window. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.macserve.net/pipermail/valentina-studio/attachments/20051220/d0ba5798/attachment-0001.html From sunshine at public.kherson.ua Tue Dec 20 23:26:41 2005 From: sunshine at public.kherson.ua (Ruslan Zasukhin) Date: Tue Dec 20 15:27:31 2005 Subject: Valentina Studio - Top 10 Impressions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12/20/05 8:56 PM, "Jochen Peters" wrote: > That said the question is if we should need the possibility to define > DIFFERENT font/font sizes > for Schema Browser/Data Browser, what you think? I think yes -- Best regards, Ruslan Zasukhin VP Engineering and New Technology Paradigma Software, Inc Valentina - Joining Worlds of Information http://www.paradigmasoft.com [I feel the need: the need for speed] From sunshine at public.kherson.ua Tue Dec 20 23:28:31 2005 From: sunshine at public.kherson.ua (Ruslan Zasukhin) Date: Tue Dec 20 15:29:14 2005 Subject: [Glitch] Structure Browser 4th column has 3 sub-columns Message-ID: Jochen, Check this When you choose any field, it fill by blue not full width of 4th column Also mouse cursor show that here present 3 sub-columns. I think ideas is to have 2 sub-columns only. one for field name second for flags -- Best regards, Ruslan Zasukhin VP Engineering and New Technology Paradigma Software, Inc Valentina - Joining Worlds of Information http://www.paradigmasoft.com [I feel the need: the need for speed] From sunshine at public.kherson.ua Tue Dec 20 23:33:26 2005 From: sunshine at public.kherson.ua (Ruslan Zasukhin) Date: Tue Dec 20 15:34:09 2005 Subject: Valentina Studio - Top 10 Impressions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12/20/05 8:56 PM, "Jochen Peters" wrote: >> 4) Selecting the "List View" option for Schema Browser in Preferences appears >> to have no effect on newly opened browsers either before or after >> relaunching the VS App. >> > Yes - i have disabled the list view - it was not very usefull and i want > first concentrate on the column view. If we will have the column view nearly > perfect i will work on the list view again (in case we still need it) I think we do Jochen, For example I did live how it can show all tables in list and their statistic. Also important is that MS users are used to this view. And I think we will need just copy MS tree -- Best regards, Ruslan Zasukhin VP Engineering and New Technology Paradigma Software, Inc Valentina - Joining Worlds of Information http://www.paradigmasoft.com [I feel the need: the need for speed] From sunshine at public.kherson.ua Tue Dec 20 23:38:06 2005 From: sunshine at public.kherson.ua (Ruslan Zasukhin) Date: Tue Dec 20 15:38:50 2005 Subject: Valentina Studio - Top 10 Impressions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12/20/05 8:56 PM, "Jochen Peters" wrote: >> 8) I appreciate it that when I select a record, that one (unpredictable) >> field is highlighted. I do not appreciate the fact that it is highlighted >> in >> a manner such that if I type any character on the keyboard the contents is >> then CHANGED. I would far prefer to see it highlighted in a manner ? or not >> at all if I just click on a row number (recId) that requires me to explicitly >> click on the cell to begin cell editing. Especially since there is no UNDO >> so if I accidentally change a value and don?t recall its (potentially very >> long) previous value, there's no way to restore it. > > No - wrong. You can press "ESC" to restore the previous value. And note > that the record is saved only if you go to another record! Right. Note PENCIL - icon. This means record in EDIT mode. You can finish EDIT mode in this ways: ESC - cancel changes CMD + RETURN - commit changes ARRORS move - commit changes and go to other record mouse click to other record or empty space -- commit changes. ------- Jochen, In the same time I also have see that we need that cmd+Z do work while I am in edit of cell. I think now also not work cmd+A, cmd+C, .. -- Best regards, Ruslan Zasukhin VP Engineering and New Technology Paradigma Software, Inc Valentina - Joining Worlds of Information http://www.paradigmasoft.com [I feel the need: the need for speed] From sunshine at public.kherson.ua Tue Dec 20 23:40:02 2005 From: sunshine at public.kherson.ua (Ruslan Zasukhin) Date: Tue Dec 20 15:40:46 2005 Subject: Valentina Studio - Top 10 Impressions -- read only In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12/20/05 8:56 PM, "Jochen Peters" wrote: >> 8b) Is there any way to use VS in a "read-only" mode, such as the way you >> can >> use BBEdit or TextWrangler. I of course opened VS on a copy of my database >> out of paranoia, but if I need to explicitly write protect a large database >> before using VS on it to protect myself it would be good to know. I was not >> able to find any available documentation for download on the VS tool. > > Well - Read-Only made can be done very easy, i think. Maybe we should do > that? Ruslan? The documentation will be available shortly after releasing > the final version. There was such request to have db.Open( ReadOnly ) Somebody was need this to shared db on network. In general yes we can -- Best regards, Ruslan Zasukhin VP Engineering and New Technology Paradigma Software, Inc Valentina - Joining Worlds of Information http://www.paradigmasoft.com [I feel the need: the need for speed] From Ed at Kleban.com Tue Dec 20 15:41:50 2005 From: Ed at Kleban.com (Ed Kleban) Date: Tue Dec 20 15:42:34 2005 Subject: Data Browser Window Title Message-ID: Displaying identical text in the window title of every Data browser and corresponding entry in the Window menu is not helpful. Both should reflect the table being reviewed, not (or not only) the database. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.macserve.net/pipermail/valentina-studio/attachments/20051220/e5291fb2/attachment.html From sunshine at public.kherson.ua Tue Dec 20 23:47:07 2005 From: sunshine at public.kherson.ua (Ruslan Zasukhin) Date: Tue Dec 20 15:47:56 2005 Subject: Data Browser Window Title In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12/20/05 11:41 PM, "Ed Kleban" wrote: > Displaying identical text in the window title of every Data browser and > corresponding entry in the Window menu is not helpful. Both should reflect > the table being reviewed, not (or not only) the database. reported -- Best regards, Ruslan Zasukhin VP Engineering and New Technology Paradigma Software, Inc Valentina - Joining Worlds of Information http://www.paradigmasoft.com [I feel the need: the need for speed] From sunshine at public.kherson.ua Tue Dec 20 23:49:37 2005 From: sunshine at public.kherson.ua (Ruslan Zasukhin) Date: Tue Dec 20 15:50:25 2005 Subject: Can't see table In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12/20/05 11:20 PM, "Ed Kleban" wrote: > The related table portion of the data browswer along with the window splitter > above it should move down when I grow a data browser window to be taller. I > want to see more of my table when I grow the window, not a taller expanse of > white space that will never have more data to dispay for a M:1 or 1:1 > relation. > > Also, if the window splitter is moved sufficiently far down, then it becomes > inaccessible and the window splitter can not be moved, even if you resize the > window. REPORTED -- Best regards, Ruslan Zasukhin VP Engineering and New Technology Paradigma Software, Inc Valentina - Joining Worlds of Information http://www.paradigmasoft.com [I feel the need: the need for speed] From Ed at Kleban.com Tue Dec 20 15:56:15 2005 From: Ed at Kleban.com (Ed Kleban) Date: Tue Dec 20 15:57:02 2005 Subject: Valentina Studio - Top 10 Impressions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12/20/05 3:38 PM, "Ruslan Zasukhin" wrote: > On 12/20/05 8:56 PM, "Jochen Peters" wrote: > >>> 8) I appreciate it that when I select a record, that one (unpredictable) >>> field is highlighted. I do not appreciate the fact that it is highlighted >>> in >>> a manner such that if I type any character on the keyboard the contents is >>> then CHANGED. I would far prefer to see it highlighted in a manner ? or >>> not >>> at all if I just click on a row number (recId) that requires me to >>> explicitly >>> click on the cell to begin cell editing. Especially since there is no UNDO >>> so if I accidentally change a value and don?t recall its (potentially very >>> long) previous value, there's no way to restore it. >> >> No - wrong. You can press "ESC" to restore the previous value. And note >> that the record is saved only if you go to another record! > > Right. > > Note PENCIL - icon. This means record in EDIT mode. > > You can finish EDIT mode in this ways: > > ESC - cancel changes > > CMD + RETURN - commit changes > > ARRORS move - commit changes and go to other record > > mouse click to other record or empty space -- commit changes. > > ------- > Jochen, > > In the same time I also have see that we need that > > cmd+Z do work while I am in edit of cell. > > I think now also not work > cmd+A, cmd+C, .. > I would also recommend that you need a way to distinguish between highlighting a cell to show where a cursor is, and opening a cell for editing -- just like is done in Excel. Furthermore, clicking on a row number (recID) should highlight the row, but should NOT open a cell for editing. Since cell editing is destructive you should make it a requirement for the user to explicitly perform some action to convey "I want to actively edit the contents of this cell", not simply throw them into an editor for an (unintuitively-selected) cell just because they click on the Row to see items in a related table. From Ed at Kleban.com Tue Dec 20 16:02:13 2005 From: Ed at Kleban.com (Ed Kleban) Date: Tue Dec 20 16:02:57 2005 Subject: Merit of non-RecId row numbers. Message-ID: Is there really merit to having data browser row numbers displayed in a first column that happen to NOT be RecID values? Does this offer any benefit? Might it not offer some considerable confusion? It sure did for me. Thanks. --Ed -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.macserve.net/pipermail/valentina-studio/attachments/20051220/7257548a/attachment-0001.html From sunshine at public.kherson.ua Wed Dec 21 00:06:33 2005 From: sunshine at public.kherson.ua (Ruslan Zasukhin) Date: Tue Dec 20 16:07:17 2005 Subject: Valentina Studio - Top 10 Impressions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12/20/05 11:56 PM, "Ed Kleban" wrote: >> Note PENCIL - icon. This means record in EDIT mode. >> >> You can finish EDIT mode in this ways: >> >> ESC - cancel changes >> >> CMD + RETURN - commit changes >> >> ARRORS move - commit changes and go to other record >> >> mouse click to other record or empty space -- commit changes. >> >> ------- >> Jochen, >> >> In the same time I also have see that we need that >> >> cmd+Z do work while I am in edit of cell. >> >> I think now also not work >> cmd+A, cmd+C, .. >> > > I would also recommend that you need a way to distinguish between > highlighting a cell to show where a cursor is, and opening a cell for > editing -- just like is done in Excel. We have consider this BUT! MS SQL works in this way as we have implement. Access also. so we think that it is more correct to follow to MS Access then to MS Excel > Furthermore, clicking on a row number (recID) should highlight the row, but > should NOT open a cell for editing. It allow edit it? BUG > Since cell editing is destructive you should make it a requirement > for the user to explicitly perform some action to convey "I want to actively > edit the contents of this cell", not simply throw them into an editor for an > (unintuitively-selected) cell just because they click on the Row to see > items in a related table. I think better add cmd+Z -- Best regards, Ruslan Zasukhin VP Engineering and New Technology Paradigma Software, Inc Valentina - Joining Worlds of Information http://www.paradigmasoft.com [I feel the need: the need for speed] From sunshine at public.kherson.ua Wed Dec 21 00:08:11 2005 From: sunshine at public.kherson.ua (Ruslan Zasukhin) Date: Tue Dec 20 16:08:54 2005 Subject: Merit of non-RecId row numbers. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12/21/05 12:02 AM, "Ed Kleban" wrote: > Is there really merit to having data browser row numbers displayed in a first > column that happen to NOT be RecID values? Does this offer any benefit? > Might it not offer some considerable confusion? It sure did for me. Hard to say. Can be also added as option into VIEW menu. At least this help to UNDERSTAND that RecID is not equal to Logical number of record :-) -- Best regards, Ruslan Zasukhin VP Engineering and New Technology Paradigma Software, Inc Valentina - Joining Worlds of Information http://www.paradigmasoft.com [I feel the need: the need for speed] From Ed at Kleban.com Tue Dec 20 21:22:02 2005 From: Ed at Kleban.com (Ed Kleban) Date: Tue Dec 20 21:22:49 2005 Subject: Valentina Studio - Top 10 Impressions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12/20/05 1:39 PM, "Ed Kleban" wrote: >> I think the main point here is storing the width of the columns, >> right? That way >> we can use the otherwise wasted space. Yes - this must be done. For >> this we need >> to store this info along with any table in a database. I have >> discussed this with >> Ruslan before - it is simply not yet implemented. Yes. And not only do you need to store this information for the duration of the application session, you need to store it in your preferences file, so that the next time the same table is opened in another session that the desired user column settings are automatically restored instead of requiring the user to set them again each time they run the application. From Ed at Kleban.com Wed Dec 21 09:48:26 2005 From: Ed at Kleban.com (Ed Kleban) Date: Wed Dec 21 09:49:13 2005 Subject: [Glitch] Structure Browser 4th column has 3 sub-columns In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ruslan, Several time you have referred to a "Structure Browser"? What is this? Do you mean the Data Browser or something else? On 12/20/05 3:28 PM, "Ruslan Zasukhin" wrote: > Jochen, > > Check this > > When you choose any field, it fill by blue not full width of 4th column > > Also mouse cursor show that here present 3 sub-columns. > I think ideas is to have 2 sub-columns only. > one for field name > second for flags > From sunshine at public.kherson.ua Wed Dec 21 18:02:42 2005 From: sunshine at public.kherson.ua (Ruslan Zasukhin) Date: Wed Dec 21 10:03:28 2005 Subject: [Glitch] Structure Browser 4th column has 3 sub-columns In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12/21/05 5:48 PM, "Ed Kleban" wrote: > Ruslan, > > Several time you have referred to a "Structure Browser"? What is this? Do > you mean the Data Browser or something else? This is first window which you see: it show dbs, tables, fields -- structure -- Best regards, Ruslan Zasukhin VP Engineering and New Technology Paradigma Software, Inc Valentina - Joining Worlds of Information http://www.paradigmasoft.com [I feel the need: the need for speed] From Ed at Kleban.com Wed Dec 21 10:08:39 2005 From: Ed at Kleban.com (Ed Kleban) Date: Wed Dec 21 10:09:26 2005 Subject: [Glitch] Structure Browser 4th column has 3 sub-columns In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The title of the first window you see is "Schema Browser". Is this what you are calling the Structure Browser? On 12/21/05 10:02 AM, "Ruslan Zasukhin" wrote: > On 12/21/05 5:48 PM, "Ed Kleban" wrote: > >> Ruslan, >> >> Several time you have referred to a "Structure Browser"? What is this? Do >> you mean the Data Browser or something else? > > This is first window which you see: > it show dbs, tables, fields -- structure From sunshine at public.kherson.ua Wed Dec 21 22:29:35 2005 From: sunshine at public.kherson.ua (Ruslan Zasukhin) Date: Wed Dec 21 14:30:21 2005 Subject: [Glitch] Structure Browser 4th column has 3 sub-columns In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12/21/05 6:08 PM, "Ed Kleban" wrote: > The title of the first window you see is "Schema Browser". Is this what you > are calling the Structure Browser? Right. Ok I will use Schema Browser term -- Best regards, Ruslan Zasukhin VP Engineering and New Technology Paradigma Software, Inc Valentina - Joining Worlds of Information http://www.paradigmasoft.com [I feel the need: the need for speed] From Ed at Kleban.com Thu Dec 22 20:37:34 2005 From: Ed at Kleban.com (Ed Kleban) Date: Thu Dec 22 20:38:31 2005 Subject: More VS feedback Message-ID: VS should retain preferences to remember that I always want to view RecId fields intsead of requiring me to set it anew each time. It strikes me that the "Show" options on the Record>Interface Options menu selection would probably show up on the View menu instead in most other programs that I'm used to using such as MS Office tools. Changing the state of "Show RecID" should NOT change the currently selected/viewed record not the choice of related table in exisitng windows. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.macserve.net/pipermail/valentina-studio/attachments/20051222/fcfe0241/attachment.html From Ed at Kleban.com Thu Dec 22 20:56:03 2005 From: Ed at Kleban.com (Ed Kleban) Date: Thu Dec 22 20:56:53 2005 Subject: YMVSF - Yet more Valentina Studio Feedback Message-ID: Double clicking on a table in the Database Elements column of the Schema Browser should open a Data Browser window on the selected table name. === On 12/20/05 4:08 PM, "Ruslan Zasukhin" wrote: > On 12/21/05 12:02 AM, "Ed Kleban" wrote: > >> Is there really merit to having data browser row numbers displayed in a first >> column that happen to NOT be RecID values? Does this offer any benefit? >> Might it not offer some considerable confusion? It sure did for me. > > Hard to say. Can be also added as option into VIEW menu. > No longer hard for me to say. PLEASE provide an option to suppress display of the line numbers. My default settings will be, and I believe might well be argued as reasonable defaults, to never display line numbers and to always display RecID numbers. Right now, I am continually confusing the line numbers for RecId numbers and getting lost and confused in my debugging. I realize that for the style of DB accesses that many others will employ, RecID numbers are totally irrelevant. But if you are using the API calls instead of SQL, this is far less likely to be the case. > At least this help to UNDERSTAND that RecID is not equal to Logical number > of record :-) > Maybe. Or maybe just confuse people more. For example the views shown in the data browser are now showing something completely different from the views in the diagrams you include in the Kernel reference. If RecIds were displayed instead the two would be showing the same thing. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.macserve.net/pipermail/valentina-studio/attachments/20051222/f5303d86/attachment.html From Ed at Kleban.com Thu Dec 22 21:23:50 2005 From: Ed at Kleban.com (Ed Kleban) Date: Thu Dec 22 21:24:41 2005 Subject: YMVSF - Yet more Valentina Studio Feedback In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12/22/05 8:56 PM, "Ed Kleban" wrote: > > Double clicking on a table in the Database Elements column of the Schema > Browser should open a Data Browser window on the selected table name. > > === Ok, now here's an opportunity for an INCREDIBLY powerful capability for VS. Not only should should double-clicking on a table name in the Schema Editor do this, but double clicking on the row number (or RecId, or some bullet or per-record icon) of a record in the Related Table section of Data Browser should: 1) Switch to the window displaying that table, or open a new window if none yet exists. 2) Scroll the table so that the double-clicked record is visible. 3) Highlight that record. 4) NOT open an edit cursor on an unpredictable field value within that record, as single-clicking on a row number currently does (Bug according to Ruslan). Given that this was implemented along with: a) Remembering per-table column width settings, b) Remembering window positions so that windows for various tables always open in the same place, c) Width problems are solved so that you only need a window that is as wide as the number of columns of data you have rather than wasting massive amounts of screen with white space and you could align the windows side by side and see more than one at the same time. THEN You could simply double-click on row numbers of records to traverse links throughout the database exceedingly rapidly and with great ease. This would be very powerful, and essentially provide a means for browsing V2 tables and relations in a similarly powerful manner as REALinsight will provide for traversing RB source code method references. From Ed at Kleban.com Thu Dec 22 21:31:05 2005 From: Ed at Kleban.com (Ed Kleban) Date: Thu Dec 22 21:31:55 2005 Subject: YMVSF - Yet more Valentina Studio Feedback In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Selecting "Show All" instead of "Show Linked" in the Related table tool bar of the Data Browser should not change the selection. It should display all records, and scroll so that the user can see the same record still selected. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.macserve.net/pipermail/valentina-studio/attachments/20051222/a5e6f3ab/attachment.html From Ed at Kleban.com Thu Dec 22 21:41:55 2005 From: Ed at Kleban.com (Ed Kleban) Date: Thu Dec 22 21:42:46 2005 Subject: YMVSF - Yet more Valentina Studio Feedback In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12/22/05 9:23 PM, "Ed Kleban" wrote: > Given that this was implemented along with: > > a) Remembering per-table column width settings, > b) Remembering window positions so that windows for various tables always > open in the same place, > c) Width problems are solved so that you only need a window that is as wide > as the number of columns of data you have rather than wasting massive > amounts of screen with white space and you could align the windows side by > side and see more than one at the same time. > > THEN > > You could simply double-click on row numbers of records to traverse links > throughout the database exceedingly rapidly and with great ease. This would > be very powerful, and essentially provide a means for browsing V2 tables and > relations in a similarly powerful manner as REALinsight will provide for > traversing RB source code method references. > This also suggests another possible viewing paradigm that could be implemented that I've been thinking about for several days now. Namely, a tabbed window paradigm like the Safari, Firefox, or RB 2005 interface, rather than a Window with selectable table interface as now implemented. In the RB2005 interface, the default is open up any newly referenced method or property, such as double clicking on a reference in the Search Results or Project tab, by selecting the existing tab for the class in the current window, or opening a new tab if there is none, and then showing the method or property of interest. The user can however command double-click on a class name from the Project tab (but due to a bug or oversight not yet from the Search Results tab) to instead open a new window with a tab displaying the class of interest. VS could do something similar, or perhaps the more appropriate behavior is to do the reverse. Namely double-clicking on a record row header in an open Data Browser either brings forward or opens a new window for viewing the table, but command double-clicking instead changes the popup setting of the current window to instead display the table clicked on. VS could also go further and provide a tabbed window interface instead of the popup table selector as do RB 2005, Safari, and Firefox. In fact, there may well be merit in providing an option for viewing the tabs in a "last-referenced" rather than "first-opened" order -- similar to the order of the breadcrumb listing at the top of a Docuwiki page for going back to recently viewed pages. From j.peters at valentina-db.de Fri Dec 23 07:07:05 2005 From: j.peters at valentina-db.de (Jochen Peters) Date: Fri Dec 23 00:07:54 2005 Subject: YMVSF - Yet more Valentina Studio Feedback In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20570.62.154.199.179.1135318025.squirrel@webmail3.server-einstellung.de> Hi Ed, thank you very much for your great thoughts, tips and suggestions. I will think about this and comment to it later. -- Best regards, Jochen Peters PIIT GmbH -------------------------- http://www.valentina-db.de > > > On 12/22/05 8:56 PM, "Ed Kleban" wrote: > >> >> Double clicking on a table in the Database Elements column of the Schema >> Browser should open a Data Browser window on the selected table name. >> >> === > > Ok, now here's an opportunity for an INCREDIBLY powerful capability for > VS. > Not only should should double-clicking on a table name in the Schema > Editor > do this, but double clicking on the row number (or RecId, or some bullet > or > per-record icon) of a record in the Related Table section of Data Browser > should: > > 1) Switch to the window displaying that table, or open a new window if > none > yet exists. > > 2) Scroll the table so that the double-clicked record is visible. > > 3) Highlight that record. > > 4) NOT open an edit cursor on an unpredictable field value within that > record, as single-clicking on a row number currently does (Bug according > to > Ruslan). > > Given that this was implemented along with: > > a) Remembering per-table column width settings, > b) Remembering window positions so that windows for various tables always > open in the same place, > c) Width problems are solved so that you only need a window that is as > wide > as the number of columns of data you have rather than wasting massive > amounts of screen with white space and you could align the windows side by > side and see more than one at the same time. > > THEN > > You could simply double-click on row numbers of records to traverse links > throughout the database exceedingly rapidly and with great ease. This > would > be very powerful, and essentially provide a means for browsing V2 tables > and > relations in a similarly powerful manner as REALinsight will provide for > traversing RB source code method references. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Valentina-studio mailing list > Valentina-studio@lists.macserve.net > http://lists.macserve.net/mailman/listinfo/valentina-studio > From sunshine at public.kherson.ua Fri Dec 23 22:36:43 2005 From: sunshine at public.kherson.ua (Ruslan Zasukhin) Date: Fri Dec 23 14:37:34 2005 Subject: Double Click - open browser. And more In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12/23/05 5:23 AM, "Ed Kleban" wrote: >> Double clicking on a table in the Database Elements column of the Schema >> Browser should open a Data Browser window on the selected table name. >> >> === > > Ok, now here's an opportunity for an INCREDIBLY powerful capability for VS. > Not only should should double-clicking on a table name in the Schema Editor > do this, but double clicking on the row number (or RecId, or some bullet or > per-record icon) of a record in the Related Table section of Data Browser > should: :-))) yes, we also have discuss such idea -- easy navigation between records in many tables and, I have think yet, about back path for return. Such navigation should happens I think with Option -- Double click for example > 1) Switch to the window displaying that table, or open a new window if none > yet exists. > > 2) Scroll the table so that the double-clicked record is visible. > > 3) Highlight that record. > > 4) NOT open an edit cursor on an unpredictable field value within that > record, as single-clicking on a row number currently does (Bug according to > Ruslan). To Jochen probably. Row number click should not start edit mode. > Given that this was implemented along with: > > a) Remembering per-table column width settings, > b) Remembering window positions so that windows for various tables always > open in the same place, > c) Width problems are solved so that you only need a window that is as wide > as the number of columns of data you have rather than wasting massive > amounts of screen with white space and you could align the windows side by > side and see more than one at the same time. > > THEN > > You could simply double-click on row numbers of records to traverse links > throughout the database exceedingly rapidly and with great ease. This would > be very powerful, and essentially provide a means for browsing V2 tables and > relations in a similarly powerful manner as REALinsight will provide for > traversing RB source code method references. RIGHT Ed. You have catch idea. :-) Although I have think about opening of next table in the top browser so in related browser you can see next childs Plus, the path of my jumps should be visible, like this do PathFinder or some web sites (including paradigma-soft). -- Best regards, Ruslan Zasukhin VP Engineering and New Technology Paradigma Software, Inc Valentina - Joining Worlds of Information http://www.paradigmasoft.com [I feel the need: the need for speed] From sunshine at public.kherson.ua Fri Dec 23 22:44:56 2005 From: sunshine at public.kherson.ua (Ruslan Zasukhin) Date: Fri Dec 23 14:45:47 2005 Subject: YMVSF - Yet more Valentina Studio Feedback In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12/23/05 5:41 AM, "Ed Kleban" wrote: > VS could do something similar, or perhaps the more appropriate behavior is > to do the reverse. Namely double-clicking on a record row header in an open > Data Browser either brings forward or opens a new window for viewing the > table, but command double-clicking instead changes the popup setting of the > current window to instead display the table clicked on. Right. You have come to idea which I have think about also. We use single data browser with 2 sections to navigate by chain of records. > VS could also go further and provide a tabbed window interface instead of > the popup table selector as do RB 2005, Safari, and Firefox. In fact, there > may well be merit in providing an option for viewing the tabs in a > "last-referenced" rather than "first-opened" order -- similar to the order > of the breadcrumb listing at the top of a Docuwiki page for going back to > recently viewed pages. Yes, it needs to think about this . -- Best regards, Ruslan Zasukhin VP Engineering and New Technology Paradigma Software, Inc Valentina - Joining Worlds of Information http://www.paradigmasoft.com [I feel the need: the need for speed] From Ed at Kleban.com Fri Dec 23 16:28:24 2005 From: Ed at Kleban.com (Ed Kleban) Date: Fri Dec 23 16:29:15 2005 Subject: Double Click - open browser. And more In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12/23/05 2:36 PM, "Ruslan Zasukhin" wrote: > On 12/23/05 5:23 AM, "Ed Kleban" wrote: > >>> Double clicking on a table in the Database Elements column of the Schema >>> Browser should open a Data Browser window on the selected table name. >>> >>> === >> >> Ok, now here's an opportunity for an INCREDIBLY powerful capability for VS. >> Not only should should double-clicking on a table name in the Schema Editor >> do this, but double clicking on the row number (or RecId, or some bullet or >> per-record icon) of a record in the Related Table section of Data Browser >> should: > > :-))) yes, we also have discuss such idea -- easy navigation between records > in many tables and, I have think yet, about back path for return. > > Such navigation should happens I think with > > Option -- Double click for example > Hmm.... I'll have to think about that. While sleeping last night I came up with yet a completely different proposal for how to traverse links and manage this traversal in new visual paradigm that is different yet from both the way that Data Browers works now and the Tabbed approach used by Safari and RB 2005, and the column approach used by Pathfinder. I'll send you a new email on that when I get around to writing it up as a proposal. But you raise an interesting point there. If you do this correctly, you should be able to backwards as well as forwards. OR it could be that the desire to do that is simply a non sequitir and in fact is just a general case of "going forward in a different direction" in terms of the interface. -- which should be a very confusing statement that you don't understand, because I don't I understand it yet either. But consider: If you have a whole bunch of tables, each of which has more than one relationship with other tables, then how do you define forward and backward? Essentially, you can't. Forward isn't defined by virtue of the number or type of relationships that a table has. Forward is defined in terms of the direction the user choose to go by clicking on one of many different available relations. And Back is then defined by returning to what you were staring at before. THIS is the paradigm that both Pathfinder and Docuwiki and Safari support with "History" mechanisms. It is a history of travel, not going forward or backward on a predefined path. So that is what is in my mind when I say that perhaps the concept of traversing links backward is merely self confusion, and instead is just a case of going forward in a different direction. But that said.... it still does suggest an interesting new twist on the interesting new navigation interface that I have not described yet. And I will include it when I make that proposal. >> 1) Switch to the window displaying that table, or open a new window if none >> yet exists. >> >> 2) Scroll the table so that the double-clicked record is visible. >> >> 3) Highlight that record. >> >> 4) NOT open an edit cursor on an unpredictable field value within that >> record, as single-clicking on a row number currently does (Bug according to >> Ruslan). > > To Jochen probably. Row number click should not start edit mode. > No. It was declared as a bug by you, not Jochen: ======== On 12/20/05 4:06 PM, "Ruslan Zasukhin" wrote: > On 12/20/05 11:56 PM, "Ed Kleban" wrote: > >>> >> >> I would also recommend that you need a way to distinguish between >> highlighting a cell to show where a cursor is, and opening a cell for >> editing -- just like is done in Excel. > > We have consider this BUT! > > MS SQL works in this way as we have implement. Access also. > > so we think that it is more correct to follow > to MS Access then to MS Excel > >> Furthermore, clicking on a row number (recID) should highlight the row, but >> should NOT open a cell for editing. > > It allow edit it? BUG > ========= >> You could simply double-click on row numbers of records to traverse links >> throughout the database exceedingly rapidly and with great ease. This would >> be very powerful, and essentially provide a means for browsing V2 tables and >> relations in a similarly powerful manner as REALinsight will provide for >> traversing RB source code method references. > > RIGHT Ed. You have catch idea. :-) > > Although I have think about opening of next table in the top browser so in > related browser you can see next childs Yeah, I'm less sure of this as well. Wait until you get my new proposal. I think there is a different way that is better. > Plus, the path of my jumps should be visible, like this do PathFinder or > some web sites (including paradigma-soft). > Yes, I agree. And my new proposal will make this very explicit and convenient to exploit. But now you have me thinking of yet another good idea to combine as well. Oh well. It will have to wait until later. --Ed From Ed at Kleban.com Fri Dec 23 16:36:29 2005 From: Ed at Kleban.com (Ed Kleban) Date: Fri Dec 23 16:37:21 2005 Subject: YMVSF - Yet more Valentina Studio Feedback In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12/23/05 2:44 PM, "Ruslan Zasukhin" wrote: > On 12/23/05 5:41 AM, "Ed Kleban" wrote: > >> VS could do something similar, or perhaps the more appropriate behavior is >> to do the reverse. Namely double-clicking on a record row header in an open >> Data Browser either brings forward or opens a new window for viewing the >> table, but command double-clicking instead changes the popup setting of the >> current window to instead display the table clicked on. > > Right. > > You have come to idea which I have think about also. > We use single data browser with 2 sections to navigate by chain of records. > That's the alternative you offer now. But I think there is an even better way, I'll propose soon. >> VS could also go further and provide a tabbed window interface instead of >> the popup table selector as do RB 2005, Safari, and Firefox. In fact, there >> may well be merit in providing an option for viewing the tabs in a >> "last-referenced" rather than "first-opened" order -- similar to the order >> of the breadcrumb listing at the top of a Docuwiki page for going back to >> recently viewed pages. > > Yes, it needs to think about this . If you haven't done so yet, you should read the post I made yesterday in the RB NUG list on the subject: "Re: Bookmarks". Here I discuss the philosophy of why "Bookmarks" in RB 2005 is a useless concept (for me that is as currently implemented) and why instead I believe the better approach is to provide improved support for the history mechanism. The same reasoning there applies here to VS. From sunshine at public.kherson.ua Sat Dec 24 00:46:18 2005 From: sunshine at public.kherson.ua (Ruslan Zasukhin) Date: Fri Dec 23 16:47:10 2005 Subject: Double Click - open browser. And more In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12/24/05 12:28 AM, "Ed Kleban" wrote: > I'll send you a new email on that when I get around to writing it up as a > proposal. But you raise an interesting point there. If you do this > correctly, you should be able to backwards as well as forwards. OR it could > be that the desire to do that is simply a non sequitir and in fact is just a > general case of "going forward in a different direction" in terms of the > interface. -- which should be a very confusing statement that you don't > understand, because I don't I understand it yet either. > > But consider: > > If you have a whole bunch of tables, each of which has more than one > relationship with other tables, then how do you define forward and backward? As backward I did mean: you jump fr r1 to 2r then to r3 then to r4. So you see this path r1 r2 r3 r4 Now you can click r2 to return back into that point. I did not mean SEARHC backward. -- Best regards, Ruslan Zasukhin VP Engineering and New Technology Paradigma Software, Inc Valentina - Joining Worlds of Information http://www.paradigmasoft.com [I feel the need: the need for speed] From sunshine at public.kherson.ua Sat Dec 24 00:47:26 2005 From: sunshine at public.kherson.ua (Ruslan Zasukhin) Date: Fri Dec 23 16:48:19 2005 Subject: Double Click - open browser. And more In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12/24/05 12:28 AM, "Ed Kleban" wrote: > But consider: > > If you have a whole bunch of tables, each of which has more than one > relationship with other tables, then how do you define forward and backward? > Essentially, you can't. Forward isn't defined by virtue of the number or > type of relationships that a table has. Forward is defined in terms of the > direction the user choose to go by clicking on one of many different > available relations. And Back is then defined by returning to what you were > staring at before. THIS is the paradigm that both Pathfinder and Docuwiki > and Safari support with "History" mechanisms. It is a history of travel, > not going forward or backward on a predefined path. Right, I do mean such history > So that is what is in my mind when I say that perhaps the concept of > traversing links backward is merely self confusion, and instead is just a > case of going forward in a different direction. > > But that said.... it still does suggest an interesting new twist on the > interesting new navigation interface that I have not described yet. And I > will include it when I make that proposal. -- Best regards, Ruslan Zasukhin VP Engineering and New Technology Paradigma Software, Inc Valentina - Joining Worlds of Information http://www.paradigmasoft.com [I feel the need: the need for speed] From Ed at Kleban.com Fri Dec 23 17:12:47 2005 From: Ed at Kleban.com (Ed Kleban) Date: Fri Dec 23 17:13:38 2005 Subject: Double Click - open browser. And more In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12/23/05 4:46 PM, "Ruslan Zasukhin" wrote: > On 12/24/05 12:28 AM, "Ed Kleban" wrote: > >> I'll send you a new email on that when I get around to writing it up as a >> proposal. But you raise an interesting point there. If you do this >> correctly, you should be able to backwards as well as forwards. OR it could >> be that the desire to do that is simply a non sequitir and in fact is just a >> general case of "going forward in a different direction" in terms of the >> interface. -- which should be a very confusing statement that you don't >> understand, because I don't I understand it yet either. >> >> But consider: >> >> If you have a whole bunch of tables, each of which has more than one >> relationship with other tables, then how do you define forward and backward? > > As backward I did mean: > > you jump fr r1 to 2r then to r3 then to r4. > > So you see this path > > r1 r2 r3 r4 > > Now you can click r2 to return back into that point. > > I did not mean SEARHC backward. > Yeah, so we're talking about a traversing backward through the navigation history. That's cool. But there IS another concept which does make sense for some special tables when viewed by specific browsers that can exploit some specific viewing paradigms. And if there is merit in doing so, it's worth exploring what those mean, whether they offer something of value to the user, and if a clever browser can provided an interface that is simple enough to make this easy to use. And I think the answer is yes. But it's a new concept we have not discussed yet. But we will.... :-) --Ed From rreexx2007 at yandex.ru Sat Dec 31 09:41:23 2005 From: rreexx2007 at yandex.ru (rreexx2007@yandex.ru) Date: Sat Dec 31 03:41:24 2005 Subject: YMVSF - Yet more Valentina Studio Feedback Message-ID: <116346856.20050116113312@pop.yandex.ru> Hi, >On 12/22/05 8:56 PM, "Ed Kleban" wrote: > > Double clicking on a table in the Database Elements column of the Schema > Browser should open a Data Browser window on the selected table name. This possibility was added. You will be able to use it in VStudio - 2.1 fc2. From sunshine at public.kherson.ua Sat Dec 31 22:18:09 2005 From: sunshine at public.kherson.ua (Ruslan Zasukhin) Date: Sat Dec 31 14:19:25 2005 Subject: [OT] Happy New Year to ALL ! Message-ID: Hi All, Paradigma team wish Happy New Year to all !!! Let new Year bring to all your many nice moments, implementations of dreams, new creative ideas, happy eyes of your children and lovers! -- Best regards, Ruslan Zasukhin VP Engineering and New Technology Paradigma Software, Inc Valentina - Joining Worlds of Information http://www.paradigmasoft.com [I feel the need: the need for speed]